B Evolutionary: The Podcast

Michael: So here I am, the information's
coming in, Audrey's has her eyes closed

and is tuning into the frequency of
ArcHa, the, the mountain and tear ole

that holds a high frequency transmission
of higher states of consciousness.

And the information is coming in.

So I thought I'd just start recording
and we'll, we'll see what happens.

This may or may not be a podcast.

So what's going on is there's a
reactivation of, uh, the downloads or

the light codes of information for the
intention of evolve to be the, the,

uh, the business aspects of our work.

And so what's coming in is a clarification
of, of the, the understandings that

are there in the world about what are
high performance organizations and

what do they really look like, uh, and
what are the characteristics that lead

one to higher rates of evolutionary
capability, higher rates of adaptability.

That are needed to solve the top 10
challenges of the, the world's CEOs

and the inherent challenge of the egoic
consciousness that's embedded and has a

control lock on, uh, all organizations,
all pretty much all organizations and

all leaders of these organizations.

And the, the mechanism to, to to, um,
um, to mitigate that lock and create

an evolutionary path forward towards a
greater individual leadership success

and the success of, of the organizations
and, and throughout the entire world.

Um, so really what it started coming
in was with an understanding of how

we'd characterize a separation between
a growth mindset and an evolutionary

mindset where when people step into
learning about themselves, that choice

to learn what's happening inside
of them, how they're functioning.

Moving towards taking re
total responsibility for

their behaviors and so on.

Learning internally that
leads to learning externally.

And so we can see the mechanism for
this happening is that when one chooses

to start really focused on internal
learning, the blocks to external

learning get cleared out of the way.

So we can see that internal
learning is a prerequisite for

high levels of external learning.

Uh, the other thing that happens with
internal learning, we can see this

from uh, various, various different
case studies and high performance

organizations, is that when people are
focused on inward learning, how, where are

they malfunctioning, where are they not
able to play as team members and so on.

The system gradually moves in a
coherent way through peer support

to a higher level of, of external
coherence and internal coherence.

Uh, we could also describe this as a
shift towards higher like levels of

psychological safety, internally, higher
levels of internal confidence as people

develop greater levels of self-mastery.

Um.

Greater levels of, of, of trust
because we know that other people

are taking responsibility for their
behavior, that they're operating in

alignment of coherence with the overall
organizational purpose and mission.

And so what happens is there's this, this
synergistic, holistic system that goes on.

Now, when we talked about the, the
starting place being with the, the,

the leadership suite, the executives,
the executives of the organization,

we can start to look at, well,
how, how proven is this approach?

Well, we know there's actually a lot
of research of very, very great levels

of success with small and medium, uh,
enterprises, uh, especially in, in Europe

where they've gone in and they said to the
CEOs, look, we've got this proven formula.

You, you give up your power.

You learn how to share power.

You learn how to work with others,
and then you're gonna get way

more productive organization and
you'll be financially better off.

And they've proven this again and again.

Many, many, many times in, in many, um,
especially, um, patriarchal owner operated

organizations in Europe, especially
Spain and I think France and so on.

And so what's going on in those
situations is a very simple formula.

Give up your power and the
organization's gonna perform better.

Now, that's a very naive recipe.

It works, but it's a very naive recipe.

What, what's essentially happening in
those situations is we're throwing the

baby out with the bath water, because
when we look at very, very high performing

organizations of a much larger scale,
we can look to examples like Emco,

where the people in the organization
vote and choose those leaders who

can best serve their organization.

Where each leader carries a
meaningful scorecard of a survey

called As Seen From Below, where the
people below them and their peers.

Assess them to see how are they
functioning in service of this

organization, in service of the people,
in service of the business mission.

And so the problem is not the hierarchy,
that's the naive implementation towards

getting to better high performance.

We don't want to use that.

What we want to use is the, the more
mature one is manifested through the

model at Emco, where it's not about
getting rid of hierarchy, it's about

using hierarchy for its purpose so that
when we have evolutionary leaders, those

operating at higher states of coherence,
higher states of alignment, higher

states of, of functioning, that are
operating in a, in a coherent state as

an executive team, that coherence then
propagates down through the organization.

And that coherence in the executive
team is the energetic template that

uplifts the whole organization.

And so that's what we're
working towards and.

The, the thing that we've discovered
is that this is achievable by

every single person on the planet.

All they need is one ingredient.

Every single executive can do this.

There's only one ingredient
they have to want to.

Now I'm reminded of a story, uh,
this is a little bit actually very

orthogonal, but going back to when
I was visiting, uh, Facebook, I was

part of this, there was this culture
initiative with all these large companies.

And, uh, you know, I mean the whole,
the whole thing with culture and,

and making transformation programs is
every large organization has run it

and knows what works and doesn't do it.

It, not because it doesn't work, but
because it threatens the status quo.

It threatens the power of the leadership.

That's why these, these initiatives fail.

So organizations keep on rediscovering
what works and then not using it.

I mean, I mean this is the, that we
were talking in the last podcast about

changing the deck chairs and the Titanic.

That's what's going on because
the known solutions work.

It's just the leaders don't wanna do it.

It's very, very simple.

So going back to the story at Facebook,
so as part of this group, and I was

visiting one of the other, the members
of this kind of this, this think tank

on, on culture across organizations.

This is the context of telcos
struggling to get out, um,

uh, get out new technology.

So that, and this is driven by Facebook.

This is a funny story.

It was driven by Facebook because
Facebook wanted to stream video, right?

And if the telcos to phones and
if the telcos couldn't get their

act together, then Facebook
couldn't stream their videos.

So they create an initiative to help
the telcos become higher functioning,

to start to learn how to do that.

And of course it didn't go
anywhere because of, of, you know,

the aforementioned challenges
of the leadership and so on.

Um, but anyway, I visited this,
this gentleman in, in Facebook.

Were you there with me, Audrey?

Audree: No,

Michael: it was before me.

This was before art

Audree: stuff.

You had a great Facebook shirt though.

Whatever happened to that?

I,

Michael: I think I gave it to my
brother and my kids or somebody.

Anyway, so, so anyway, uh, we were
there and he told me the funniest story.

He said that the one thing that
they did at Facebook that was really

valuable for them to help their
leadership was executive coaching.

And the story he told
me was very interesting.

He said, you know, one executive who
came in, who, who's like an, who had a

lot of domain knowledge, but Facebook
wanted them because this person,

because they had domain knowledge,
but they didn't fit into the culture.

They were too traditional.

They weren't evolutionary enough.

And so what Facebook did is they hired
a coach for them to help them through to

learn about themselves through their own
issues, their own blocks of limitations.

And then.

You know, someone was interviewing them
and said, Hey, you know, did this work?

Like what are the benefits of this?

And, and the guy looked at the
interview and said, you know what?

Here, don't ask me, talk to my wife.

Audree: We've had many stories
like that in our courses.

Michael: We've had many stories like that
where the, the, the, the, the profound

shift when we take responsibility
for ourself is in, not in the

workplace, it's in our personal lives.

It reminds me of the,
the story of the one.

Um, what is that?

There's that, remember that story
we saw about the guy who is old

and dying, has a lot of money.

He gets a new body.

And then he had never talked to
his daughter when he was in that

role, but when he was in a different
role, he finally understood what

was going on with his daughter.

Anyway,

Audree: I never heard that story.

Or

Michael: maybe, maybe I
watched this on my own.

I was watching the stream of, you know,
what movies about consciousness and so on.

Anyway, my point is that the relationships
that matter most to our life flourish.

And so the the real win for
executives and, and you know, again,

I said it comes back to the choice.

The real win for the executives
is they can sleep at night.

Their relationships, personal
relationships that matter the

most are actually, are actually
the ones that are gonna flourish.

And that at the workplace,
they no longer have struggle.

It's more in a state of flow and
coherence, and they're actually

building a legacy that's gonna
continue on for generations.

So the wind are there.

And the only challenge, and this is a
significant challenge, is that we're

ready to look at ourself in the mirror.

We're ready to examine our
behaviors that are destructive.

We're ready to step outside of the
traditional box of, of what we've

been told is reality and step into,
okay, well let me listen to this

meditation and see what it does for me.

Let me run the experiment.

Audree: This reminds me of when we were in
Texas teaching a, a leadership class, and

we had one of, uh, Michael has, Michael
wrote a book, a very small book, but very,

very significant in the agile community.

And so he had a lot of people following
him, and there was, uh, one guy,

oh, and then that led to all these
keynotes and then doing these courses

and, and then just the word of mouth.

We never advertised.

We, we just really had word of
mouth of what we were doing and.

And this one guy, he was a
agile coach, uh, working at an

oil company, loved our work.

And what, so when we came to Texas, he
brought his boss with him for this course.

Michael: Yeah.

I think we were in, uh, Dallas
Fort Worth and they came from

some other city or something.

Audree: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Houston or something.

Yeah.

Michael: So Houston, yeah.

Audree: Here's the thing.

This was in the early days of our course
where our course was pretty hardcore.

Michael: Oh, it was intense.

It was the wet and wild
version was the, in your face.

Audree: It was the wet and wild
version of our leadership training.

And,

and the guy could not, the, the, the
his boss, the guy's boss, the leader

could not, this is a Texas oil man.

He could not wrap his head
around letting go of power.

And at that time, you know, we
didn't have the paradox of power.

We didn't have any, a lighter way to

Michael: No pressure to deliver.

Audree: Yeah.

We didn't have a way to make sense
of what we were really speaking to.

So, you know, he came from a very
traditional organization, what we call

red organization, just a very command and
control, you know, that's how, that is.

Old school, traditional
ways of doing business.

And he couldn't wrap his head around this.

And you know, really in the
beginning, the first day of the

class were really, it was about more
theory than it was practicality.

So it was like,

Michael: it was more inward
focus than outward focus.

Audree: Yeah.

Was, I would

Michael: say that

Audree: would be, it was, it was
just like, I mean that was part of

the evolutionary process that we
went through so people can really.

Wrap their heads around these
concepts that we were talking about.

Regardless,

Michael: it was really, it
was, it was too advanced.

That was the basic

Audree: challenge.

Yeah.

It was way too advanced.

Michael: I mean, we
had the playbook in it.

Mm-hmm.

And that, that got pulled
out to like much later, so.

Audree: Okay.

Anyways, so, um,

so the guy, the guy was actually,
he wasn't, he, he, it was a

weird thing, but he came up to us
and he goes, this isn't for me.

I'm not coming back.

I can't do this.

Like, it was just like, there
was like just pure rejection.

He was just so closed off.

He had such a fixed mindset and he just
couldn't comprehend any, and, and it

was just like, he was such a hard, no.

And, and so he, and, and.

But he, I mean, he actually came up
to us and said, I'm not coming back.

This is, this is bullshit.

I mean, like, he was, it
was like a weird thing.

And we were like, yeah, sure, no problem.

Do you want your money back?

Like we, we, you know, it was not a
big deal, but what, what were, what

we were really understanding through
organizational, the, you know, the

dynamics within the organization and how
people are working within the organization

and the issues that every organization
has regardless of the industry, regardless

of the culture, regardless of the,
the place on the planet, the location,

it's, it's pervasive everywhere.

And that is, um, getting
people to work like.

Engaged.

Every organization needs engaged.

Not just engaged, motivated workers,
but people that are working up, uh,

working up, um, coming into work and
they're able to perform not at, you

know, a mediocre rate of performance,
but at high levels of performance.

Michael: Like a startup where
everyone's excited and energized.

Audree: Yeah.

Like their brilliance is shining.

Their, their, their mind is open,
their intelligence is activated,

and they're able to solution almost
instantaneously because they're in that

space of having the ability that their
ideas are at least gonna be heard.

It doesn't mean that they're
gonna be accepted, it just means

that they're heard, that they're
encouraged, that they're, you know.

Every single human being needs that
kind of support to, to uplift them

and so they could perform better.

We see this with children.

I mean, it's, it's really, if you're
knocking a child down over and over and

over again, they're just gonna check out.

And that's what we have.

We have checked out people within
the organization, and now the

leadership is like, I can't, you
know, I can't get the donkey to move.

The donkey is stubborn, the
donkey's in resistance, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And they keep tugging and tugging
and tugging and pulling on it.

And it seems so obvious,

you know?

And now we have AI coming in,
and now the organizations are

saying, well, we have ai now.

We don't need the intelligence
of our people anymore.

We're gonna, we're gonna get AI.

Going and, and then we're
gonna cut the workforce.

I mean, literally, that's
the, that's the plan for ai.

And not, it's not about scarcity
or fear or, oh, we better, you

know, we better shape up the
as as people in the workforce.

We better change.

Otherwise, AI is gonna take over.

It's beyond that, that point, you know?

And so I think addressing the whole,
the, the elephant in the room,

the ai, um, is probably a good
idea at some point in a podcast.

But it's, it's, why does, why does,
you know, why are these organizations

moving towards a technology that, you
know, it, it's like this same mentality.

It's like, oh.

Well, we have the AI to
do all these jobs now.

We don't have to pay the ai, you
know, we don't have to deal with the

resistance in the workforce anymore.

We don't have to deal with the people
and the problems with the people.

And, you know, it's this and,
and it's just this blatant

disregard for, for a human being.

And, and I mean, that's
what it's coming down to.

It's like the, the honor and the respect
and, you know, it's, it's like looking

at the situation that's happening at work
or in the workplace with the workforce.

And instead of

saying, oh wow, maybe it's the
leadership team that's creating this.

It's like they don't even
wanna, you know, self-regulate.

It's like, it's, oh, I
don't wanna self-regulate.

I'm just gonna, we're just gonna
move everything to AI and we're

just going to get rid of the people.

And, and that causes an even
bigger issue and a bigger problem.

And, and AI can't solve
the, the problems anyways.

So it's, it's a conundrum.

Michael: Well, I, so I've, I've worked,
uh, I've worked in large organizations

and I know how technology initiatives go.

And really, the large organizations
only seem to be successful when

they have a plug replacement.

They say, look, we're gonna
buy this module and it's

gonna replace all this stuff.

And that's where AI can function.

If it takes over whole modules.

If, if a company that knows how
to function, build something

that can take over function.

But really the point, and we see
this with, with, with the, the

context we have is the struggle
they have is how do we implement ai.

How do we implement ai?

And, and I know what the problem is.

This is what we, I talked about before.

The problem with AI implementing AI is,
implementing AI is a learning strategy.

The output of AI implementation is a, is
a result of the evolutionary capability,

which is a result of the external learning
capability of your people was a result

of their internal learning capability,
which is a result of the internal

learning capability of the leadership.

So we're back to the leadership,

Audree: right?

Michael: And, and like there.

And so the, the, so what we're
speaking about is the root cause of

your each organization's inability
to adopt AI is the leadership that's

actually the core limiting factor.

And so I actually see a very different
world, which is in organizations

embracing AI organizations, embracing the
evolutionary path and using that not to

get rid of jobs, but to actually create
way better products and more services

and, and actually create a bigger top
line so that everyone keeps their job.

Right.

Or, or moves to a role where
they're contributing in a

very, very different way.

Audree: Well, I'll, I'll, I'll tell
you that AI has the capability of

actually uplifting the people that is
actually needed in the leadership team.

Michael: Mm-hmm.

Audree: It has that capability because
that's what it's, that is what if AI

for good, that is what AI is brilliant

about.

Michael: Right?

So, so AI is not accessible to
the leadership team right now.

And, and I'll say why, because
the leadership teams that I've

seen in pretty much every single
organization are extremely stupid.

I, I mean, extremely myopic and stupid.

That's how they function.

I'm not judging anyone.

I'm just saying the structure
which they're operating in and

the condition they have had of,
have them operating these ways,

regardless of their individual iq.

But as a collect, I'm gonna give

Audree: you, say the,

Michael: I'm gonna say what it is,

Audree: what they're operating

in.

Michael: I'm gonna say what they're,
what they're, I can tell you right now.

If the organization was operating in a
healthy way, the leaders would be taking

responsibility for their behavior.

Right.

That would be like the number one.

And I'll, I'll, I'll
explain this one first.

The most successful, uh, transformation
situation that I've been involved

with was where I did work deep work
with the leadership team where we

did leadership retreats, where they
did see me modeling what a healthier

behavior pattern was like, where
they learned how to start giving up

power iteratively and incrementally
where they still participate.

They participated in the
whole transformation program

just along with the teams.

They went first, and not only that,
when they realized they'd made mistakes,

the head of that department got up
on stage at an all hands with all

the staff and said, we are so sorry.

Audree: Mm-hmm.

Michael: We've inflicted harm in you here.

We've inflicted harm in you here.

We've inflicted harm in you.

Here we were doing it 'cause
we thought it would be good.

We were wrong.

We are so sorry.

And when that happens, the hardness,
the, the frustration of the staff.

Just the

Audree: resistance

Michael: melted.

Audree: Yes.

Michael: And there is an opening
for growth within that whole

department in an extraordinary way.

That is what's required energetically,
emotionally, having humility with the

leadership to open up your organizations.

Now I'm gonna give you a very practical
data point to prove beyond a shadow

of a doubt that the leadership of your
organization does not care about what

is the best strategic plan for the year.

How can I prove that?

Well, it's very simple.

They're not listening.

The mechanism in your organization
right now for the strategic plan

is that your leadership team.

Involves a bunch of groups and people
behind closed doors, comes up with

a strategic plan, tells everyone and
says, this is our strategic plan for a

year, and it's announced and that's it.

Maybe there's some token input and so on.

In a healthy organization where top
executives are listening, the the

leader, so, so I'll, I'll give you the
baby version then the full version.

The minimum version is we
go behind closed doors.

We come up with a strategic plan, but
then we give it to everybody else.

We explain why we think it's
important, what we're doing,

and they vote and critique it.

And we use the collective intelligence of
the whole system to improve the strategic

plan before making decision to use it.

So there's like a, Hey,
here's our proposal.

How does this proposal suck?

Where's this proposal?

Good?

What could we do better
with this proposal?

How could we improve it?

And they use the harness, the
collective intelligence of the whole

organization to get to a better outcome.

That's kind of like the, the
kind of the, the baby mode of,

of listening and co-creation.

The real mode of co-creation is
that the whole organization together

co-create the goals and, and,
and what the strategic goals are.

And it's a mix of top down and
bottom up coming together in

coherence for what balance is
gonna best serve the organization.

And I can guarantee you neither
of those are in place in your

organization because it's not the norm.

Or if you are in that organization,
congratulations, you're

less than 1% on the planet.

But that's how one can very practically
tell the egoic consciousness in the

leadership team is locked in place
and they are not able to listen.

They're not able to listen.

They're people.

And if they're listening to an ai, you
know, that might be better in some ways,

but they really need to listen to their
people and use the collective intelligence

because it's your, your organization,
all the people is like a large sensor

network operating on your business.

And the sensory network of your
organization is most likely shut down,

operating at less than 1% effectiveness.

We were talking about this yesterday
about controls, on controls and

trying to get to the truth and so on.

And so if you, we think of an
organization as a sensory network.

What we're seeing here is what is
the health of that sensory network?

How able is it to pull signals from
where they cut, originate, and move

them to where they need to go so the
organization can function and harms

the resources for what's needed?

Audree: And now what you've
all been waiting for.

We're going back, we get back
to the ego at consciousness.

It's all about the ego.

And this is the other thing that everybody
that is working with the ego now on the

planet is working from a psychology,
the, the, you know, psychological

industry, you know, standards of
process and procedure are at a very,

very high level of speaking to the ego.

I mean,

Michael: trying to work with
the ego from the mind only.

Audree: Yeah.

And, and, and while it's great, any
kind of movement towards some sort of.

Of process or technique or, you know,
awareness of the egoic consciousness

and the part that it plays within
organizational dynamics is brilliant.

You know, we could talk about culture,
we could talk about organizational

behavior, we could talk about leadership,
you know, in all different, you know,

conscious leadership, servant leadership,
you know, all these different, love

Michael: the line below the line, blah,

Audree: blah, blah, blah.

Yeah.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And

they're, they're while semi
effective at a surface level.

Yes.

Michael: I, I'll, I'll say, I'll
say, I like the numbers, Michael.

Audree: What

Michael: I'll say, I like the numbers.

It's a good start.

Yes, it's a good first 1%.

Audree: Yes.

Michael: It's a good first
1% of what's actually needed.

Audree: And what we are, what we are
pointing out here is that first of all.

Michael, you've been teaching culture
and leadership within an organization and

organizational dynamics and how things
actually work and function since when?

Michael: Uh, I'd say the
first class is, I think 2014.

Audree: Yeah.

So even before that, because you were in,
well, it was, it was part, part of the

Michael: larger body of work.

Audree: Right.

But you were

Michael: culture really
started around 2010.

Audree: Yeah.

I've been studying energetic, healing,
fun fact is the psychology of disease.

I've been studying about the ego
since the 1990s, um, in application

both with clients and with myself.

And we've been on these very, very
deep exploratory experimental.

Journeys within our own being
and then applying it in our

work together since 2017.

And we started, I mean, we started these
journeys personally without each other.

I mean, I started this in going, I'm,
I'm saying going to India in 2013.

And I remember in the beginning
people thought we were crazy.

Do you remember how much shit
we got from the industry?

Like the president of an alliance
association, a professional association,

God love them, came up to us and said,
you can't teach what you're teaching.

We heard you're teaching yoga
and meditation in your classes.

We were like, what?

Michael: What?

Audree: Oh, oh, yeah.

'cause we had people close
their eyes and breathe though.

I, I guess that's meditation.

I remember I did a conference,
uh, a session at a conference

about gratitude and somebody said
that I was teaching religion.

Wow.

Mind blowing.

Michael: That

Audree: was funny.

I've forgotten about that.

We've gotten, we've gotten, okay.

We've gotten a lot of shit for our, out
being an outlier, seeing how consciousness

is the leading factor in everything.

Performance of an organization.

Organizational dynamics, organizational
behavior, organizational performance,

Michael: individual performance,
leadership performance.

Audree: Yeah.

Woo.

It's all about consciousness.

It's all about consciousness.

And now there's things like conscious
leadership that are showing up.

So the, like the, there's an evolution
of humanity that is intuitively

understanding, and we're not the only
ones that have been talking about this.

I mean, you know, servant leadership
is saying the same thing about

getting the ego out of the way.

I mean, you know, it's because it's
intuitive, it's obvious, it is so obvious

what has been happening on the planet,
yet the needle has not been moved.

And I mean,

Michael: yet,

Audree: yet we come together, Michael
and I, and the reason like kind of our

secret sauce and the reason why what
we do for our own evolution is we've

gone into the depths of what is gonna
move the needle, not a little bit.

It, we're talking full blown.

How do we get rid of those deep
subconscious grooves that are wreaking

havoc and creating damage in our ex
internal life, in our external lives?

Like what is that?

And there's, um,

there's something about looking
at, you know, ancient modalities

in modern psychology and da da da
da da, and, you know, what does

it take to, to move that needle?

You know?

And it is like, we call it the
weird stuff that works because it

works and I mean, and it works out
of the gate, like it works in the

first 10 minutes of our courses.

It works in the first 10 minutes
of you listening to this podcast,

Michael: right?

Like in the in-person classes where
suddenly the whole group is dynamic,

is transformed in the first 10
minutes and then at about the 20

minute market goes even deeper in
30 minute and the whole system goes

whoosh into a state of coherence.

'cause we're using these structural
tools for coherence and we are

operating in a coherent state.

Audree: Structural tools, energetic tools.

We've actually trained some of our
advanced students to be able to do this.

Do the same

Michael: thing.

Audree: Same thing.

So what we are finding is what we do is,
uh, replicable, replicable, replicable.

Yeah.

I can't say it.

Thank you.

Michael: Repeatable.

Audree: Repeatable.

Yeah.

Repeat.

It's such a weird word.

Repeatable.

Michael: Fun to say.

Wanna get away for it?

Yeah.

Audree: Um,

Michael: you can say it can grow.

Audree: I mean, I, I know people like
I, um, I ha we have, uh, one of my,

one of my favorite teachers just 'cause
I love him 'cause he is crazy and you

know, he actually takes leadership train
teams on ayahuasca retreats to try to,

because Ayahuasca's really great for,
for, we do not recommend plant medicine.

By the way, I'm just gonna to say
this, this is not our, our path

or what we recommend, but he takes
leaders on these ayahuasca retreats

to get them to crack open, to get
them to, to, to have awareness.

Shine the light on the, on the
ego of consciousness and behaviors

to get them to crack open.

Um, but what, what's not, what, what
I find is not suitable for that is

that it, you can't just do that.

There has to be structure, there has
to be integration, there has to be

tools and techniques and knowledge in
place, or correct knowledge in place

that supports that journey of the ego.

Because the whole entire evolutionary
journey is about the transmutation,

the healing, and the transformation
of the egoic consciousness.

And most people do not understand
what the egoic consciousness is.

It's been labeled as bad People judge it.

They see how their ego is behaving
and causing damage in their lives, and

then they feel bad about themselves.

Remember when we used to do the,
the, uh, the four a's leadership

mod module, and we had to inoculate

Michael: level one?

It's like, oh goodness, I know.

And then we had to do

Audree: these inoculations
processes so people wouldn't be

Michael: in judgment of their
own behavior in their own self.

Oh God.

Audree: Because that creates more damage.

And the truth is, is that people do not
understand the laws of mechanics and

how this universe functions, which is
the incarnation structures of being,

which includes the ego of consciousness.

When you do not know this, you cannot,
you cannot teach about the ego, and you

cannot teach how to overcome the damage
caused by the ego, a consciousness.

And you're not gonna find
it in a psychology book.

You're not gonna find it in
the ancient mystical teachings

either, because it's, it's,

it's not even in, in the modern,
energetic, healing modalities.

Michael: Okay.

So I've been, I've been just feeling
into, um, not just ayahuasca, but

let's say other psychedelics that
open up consciousness and so on.

And I'll, I'll make the very,
very clear statement that they are

beneficial for growth and consciousness.

Yeah, and they're not a, and they're
also limiting at the same time.

Because what you're doing with those is
you're relying on an external support

to give you the internal awareness and
what the path that we have for like the,

the complete path is about you having
that own internal awareness and that

own self mastery and accessing the high
vibrational frequency, which has more

than everything you need through the E
two mantra and the, you know, the, um.

Uh, the E two E two chakra system has
more than enough high frequency to

give you the same awareness you can get
through those plant-based technologies.

But it's done in the context of,
of evolutionary living and the, and

the, and really taking sovereignty
for your being and developing and

cultivating and using awareness as
the primary mechanism of evolution.

Not just in a moment of taking plant
medicine and getting the boost from

it, but using that in daily life.

And if you're not doing that in
daily life, you're not able to

get the integrated benefit, the,
and the stable evolutionary path.

You're gonna get these little
improvements and these little jumps.

And so if that's your
world state, that's fine.

There's nothing wrong with
that, that's a choice.

But we're offering is something very, very
different and fundamentally structured

differently, which is why within this
path there's no need for those things.

And in some ways they're actually, um,
not helpful because they're not moving

you towards your self mastery, which
is what's the, the journey's about?

And, you know, it's not that
you know, you have to do

self-mastery or blah, blah, blah.

It's about, well, if you wanna
make your life better, you are the

one creating your life like this

Audree: not better.

And

Michael: you don't understand why you're

Audree: successful,

Michael: successful he or whatever you
are the one creating it because you

don't know how you're to operate the,
the machinery of your incarnation that

is creating the outcomes you don't want.

And unless you take responsibility for
how you're creating the outcomes you

don't want, you can't stop creating them.

It's very, very simple
when I say it that way.

Audree: Okay?

And at least for me, I am
speaking from personal experience.

I've done it all.

People I want you to
know, I've done it all.

I've done LSD, I've done mushrooms, I've
done ayahuasca, I've done San Pedro.

I've never done peyote.

Don't care to.

I mean, I've, I've actually
experimented with all these things.

It's like my evolutionary journey
through my life has been, now that I

think about it, really profound for me.

Michael: Oh, you've got a
really good ayahuasca story.

Audree: Oh,

right.

Because I've, I've also,
because of my experimentation,

um, and, and like I, I've gone to
Peru, you know, and I've spent a week

doing San Pedro at a sacred site.

So I, it's like I have, I, I'm not,
I've haven't just like dabbled,

you know, and done this thing.

I, I've been all in and I've

Michael: Is that in book?

Audree: No, it doesn't need to be.

Oh, okay.

It really doesn't need

Michael: to.

That's another really good story.

Audree: You know,

Michael: you got the best story.

Such a,

Audree: I've had the best.

Michael: You're such a three, five.

Audree: I've had the best profile life.

I, I really have, I mean, I've been
frustrated with it, but I really have

to like be, also be in deep honor
and gratitude for my life journey

because it, it's brought me here.

I mean,

Michael: how many people on the planet
have spent from the west have spent a week

in Peru at a sacred site doing San Pedro?

Audree: Not many, and a
very specific San Pedro.

Yeah.

And even how I got

Michael: there, you're not
talking about Machu Picchu.

Audree: And even, even how I got
there was a, was a very, very.

Bizarre synchronistic journey.

Like, I mean, even, so it's been
pretty magical anyways, going back

to so ayahuasca, so I, you know,
people, I was living in California,

people are doing ayahuasca and going
on these journeys and they're like,

haven't you ever done ayahuasca?

And I was like, no.

At that point I was like, no, I
am done with that kind of stuff.

There's no, there's,

Michael: I

Audree: don't need it.

I don't, I don't need it.

I don't, I I, I, I do not, um, believe
in plant medicine or medicine or

psychedelics or, um, it's not the correct
route for an evolutionary process.

Mm-hmm.

And that's it.

I just didn't recommend it.

You know, my clients are coming to me.

I say I don't recommend it with the caveat
that I've never done ayahuasca, but I

adamantly like, was like very against it.

And then I was living in Sedona,

of course.

Um, and, and my housemates were,
um, were, uh, loved ayahuasca.

They weren't doing it all the time
or anything like that, but they

just had a lot of respect for it.

Um, they had a lot of respect
for the indigenous cultures.

They knew a lot of people.

Um, you know, there's whole entire
religions based on ayahuasca.

You have to understand this.

So there's, there are, it's a very

Michael: powerful plant medicine.

Audree: Yes.

It's a very powerful plant medicine.

There are shamans who are
like priests basically.

Uh, they are not, basically
they are priests and they have

whole entire churches set up.

With, um, you know, with journeying with
Ayahuasca and using it as a, a mystical

experience, and it's a religion in South
America and then there's Western people

that are, are trained in it, which is
kind of bizarre, but it's, it's okay.

Um, so I knew these people, like from from
my housemates, I was, I, I got to meet

them and, and know them and, and kind of
understand, you know, I was like, my, my

opinion was not softening, but I get it.

Okay.

That's other people's paths.

It's still not my path because

of what I was seeing was
the addiction to medicine.

Was still very prevalent in, in
those cultures or in that kind of

subculture within our Western society.

Not so much in the indigenous cultures
'cause they came from a different

background, but the western culture,
western culture, embracing plant medicine.

I saw it was, there were people there
that also did other kinds of drugs

and it was recreational and it wasn't
ceremonial and blah, blah blah blah blah.

So I stayed away from it.

Um, and, but my housemates, I know
this is gonna be really dumb, but my

housemates had these really cool, um.

Burn marks on their arms that
looked like a, like, they were like

tattoos, but they were burn marks.

I don't know what they call it, branding.

It looked like branding anyways.

And, and I was like, well, what is that?

And they're like, oh,
those are combo ceremonies.

And I was like, what's combo?

And it's like they, they scrape off
the poison off of an Amazon rainforest

frog, you know, the frog's skin
and, and they actually burn holes.

This is really bizarre.

They burn holes into the skin and then
they put the combo, the frog poison into

the skin and, and you become, the toxicity
of the poison actually purges your system.

Michael: Yeah, I'm feeling it now.

That's pretty intense.

Audree: Oh yeah.

It's v extremely, extremely intense.

But how they touted the, this.

The combo ceremonies is,
it's not a hallucinogenic by

the way, it's a pure toxin.

What it does is that you, you do these
low doses and you do them over a period

of time, over a period of a year, and
what happens is that it increases your,

the immunity in your system, and by
the end of it, you will never get sick.

Michael: Mm-hmm.

Audree: Supposedly, I don't know that.

Um, but what, from a medical standpoint,
it does make sense that if you put in

low, like if you put in a low dose of,
you know, that's what a vaccine is, it's

a low dosage of the actual virus, um,
that goes into your body and then your

body, um, creates its own, uh, immunity.

To that virus.

It's kind of the same thing.

And supposedly what the, the combo does
is it, it, it gives you like superpowers.

It it, it boosts your white cell count it,
it, it, it makes your T cells which fights

infection in your body like superpowered.

You know, that's what it does over time.

And when you combine the, that
combo ceremony and then you do

ayahuasca, the, the physical effect
effects of doing ayahuasca are

so intense that it's almost like

Michael: It's like a
purification on a purification

Audree: Exactly.

Michael: Purification squared.

Audree: Yeah, because, because ayahuasca
is also a toxin, anything that makes

you hallucinate is toxic to your body.

Um, the reason why.

You would have those, those effects
as your body is trying to purge

the toxin out of your system.

So you're throwing up and basically
you're shitting all at the same time.

And it's, it's like that's
what Ayahuasca does.

So it's kind of like this, why fun times?

Why would you wanna do that?

You know, I don't wanna do that.

I also don't appreciate
tripping my brains out anymore.

It's like you're really, you're really
in altered states of consciousness that

are also very intense, and that kind
of journey can go all kinds of wrong.

Um, but anyways, I was convinced, um, my,
my roommates took me to the, uh, the, the,

uh, the shaman to meet, just to meet him.

And so I spent a day with him.

You know, and we, and we hung out and we
talked and, and you know, I got to know

who he was and, and everything like that.

And, and so then I was like, oh,
I think I could trust this guy.

Um, he came highly recommended
and I got to know him, so it

felt like it was the right thing.

So, um, I don't know, like a couple
months later, you know, I, I, I, um,

said, okay, I'm ready to do that.

So I did the combo ceremony first in the,
during the day, just to see how that was.

I didn't, you know, that was
super, super, super intense.

Like, I thought I was
gonna die, like, literally.

And I remember there was another guy
that was also at the, it was this temple.

It was an ayahuasca temple.

Um.

And he was there too.

And he was trying to, he wanted
to do the ayahuasca and it was

recommended with this shaman that
you do the combo ceremony first.

You do the purification first because
it, it activates the ayahuasca better

and you have less reaction to it.

So he, he was trying
to get off medication.

He was on psychiatric drugs and it was
this, there was a whole thing going on.

And, and so he was even worse than I was.

And I remember watching him, 'cause he
went first and I was like, oh my god.

Like, and the shaman
had to do one at a time.

It wasn't like you could do us together.

So I had to watch this guy
go through the ceremony.

And then that night, because when
you do ayahuasca, you do it in

the evening, and then it's a whole
entire, it's from evening to morning.

And so anyways,

Michael: right, so the
thoughts here is clearer.

Audree: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I go, I, we do the, I go to the
Ayahuasca ceremony and I take the

Ayahuasca and it's working for everybody
and it's not working for me at all.

And then I have to take more.

And I didn't really, I didn't
wanna take a lot in my system

because I was so paranoid.

I, I did not wanna throw up, I did not
wanna, I didn't poop, I didn't wanna throw

up, I didn't wanna, you know, but I had
to take more 'cause it wasn't working.

And so what happens is that during the
ceremony, you wait a few hours, see what

happens, and then you could take more,
you can approach the shaman and he can

give you more if he thinks it's okay.

And so I approached him and I said.

It's not working.

I need more.

And he actually told
me to go back and wait.

So I went back and waited.

He was very, very conscious
of what he was doing.

And um, and, and then it wasn't working.

And so he was watching me.

And so he called, he called me up and
he said, okay, you could take more.

And so I take more and it's a
liquid drink and it's nasty.

So I took more.

And then I was sitting there and I
can kind of feel the ayahuasca I like,

it's like, has its own consciousness
and it has its own personality

and I can feel it in my system.

And that's when it was just like,
and then it started talking to me.

Really?

And it was like, well,
you've been badmouthing me.

And I was like, oh yeah, I know.

Yeah.

It's like, well, you have no honor
for, for my power in, in what I can do.

And, uh, I was like, yeah, no, I don't.

And I remember I had to, I had
to reconcile my own, um, judgment

for the ayahuasca itself.

And the minute I did that, then
my whole entire system flooded it.

The ayahuasca flooded through me
and it actually did the work, but

I had to honor the consciousness.

Like people in indigenous
cultures, they'll call it

the, the spirit of ayahuasca.

It's the consciousness.

It has its own consciousness.

Um, many years before this, with
the ayahuasca, when I was in Peru

and I was at the Shamans, um.

He actually had a hotel, um, when I
was there, and it was, I remember the

first night that I was there, the,
the consciousness of the San Pedro.

I could feel it moving through my room
and I met it, like I actually met the

consciousness and the consciousness was
actually also seeking me at the same time.

And, and we were meeting each other
and it was like, you know, they talk

about the consciousness of plants.

You know, the indigenous cultures
are very aware of consciousness and

that's why they can talk to trees or
they talk to the spirit of the animal.

It's, they're, they're meeting the
consciousness, they're meeting it, the,

that, that being, and they're honoring
and respecting it and that they're

having a relationship with it because
they understand consciousness itself.

And so that's what the plant medicine is.

It's about meeting the consciousness of
the plant medicine and, and asking and

honoring it in, in ceremony and gratitude
and saying, I need your help here.

I need to, I, I, I am in resistance.

My consciousness needs it.

It's shut down and I have,
I have no access to it.

And so what the ayahuasca did does
is it moves through your system

and it finds your blocks, and
then it, it opens, it, it, it's

like an energetic, uh, experience.

And it opens up that blocked, hardened,
stuck energy and it, and it, it opens it.

So it brings it up into your awareness.

What do we talk about here?

Awareness is the primary
mechanism for evolution.

So that's what the ayahuasca is
doing, is it's bringing into your

awareness, you know, in various ways
where your, where your consciousness,

your ego consciousness is stuck and
it just does this inward reflection.

So that awareness creates the, the
unwind in your consciousness to shift

and you can and, and, and let go of
you process through the, the damage you

process, through the hurt, the wounding.

Um, one very specific thing
at the end of my journey.

And this, that journey's 10 hours.

It's very intense.

At the end of the journey, it put me in my
ex-husband's body and I was able to feel

and experience his hurt and his wounding.

And because of that, that awareness,
my heart opened and I had a, my,

a different view or perspective.

It changes your perspective, awareness
shifts your perspective in profound ways.

So if you have listened to our, we're
talking about what is the evolutionary

journey coming back to, um, you
don't, you do not need plant medicine.

Michael: In fact, it, well, I think I
just wanna go back to with the clarity.

It's like if you, if you
don't want to do the work.

Go take plant medicine.

If you're ready to do the work,
then there's a path for you.

But the plant medicine is not the path.

Plant medicine is a distraction
from the, the actual path.

Well,

Audree: that's what happens

Michael: because, because you're
not taking ownership, you're relying

on something external to you, and
you're only getting it in a like in

one experience, rather than you're

Audree: not getting it with knowledge
of what the ego of consciousness is.

Michael: What, and not
making it part of your life.

Audree: What happened?

Michael: Life.

I think that's the bigger thing.

It's not part of your, your daily reality.

We're talking about you
becoming functioning different

in your daily reality.

So that's what this work is about.

Audree: Right.

Going back to Yes, I was able to
step into my ex-husband's body.

I was able to feel his pain
and his suffering, and it

gave me a new perspective.

It opened my heart.

That's when my heart started healing.

Mm-hmm.

With my relationship with my ex,
and it didn't do it all the way.

I still had to do the work.

It opened and it started the journey,
but it did not finish the journey.

Michael: Oh, you had something
going on in the last seven days.

Audree: Oh yeah.

And that was 10 years ago.

Michael: Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Audree: When I had that
journey, the ayahuasca.

Michael: So this whole podcast started
with organizational dynamics and the,

the mechanisms of unlocking those.

Do you understand how we got
to talk about plant medicine?

Audree: Yes, I did.

Michael: Oh, how did we get here?

Audree: Um, the resistance or, um,
working with the ego of consciousness

and what it actually takes,

Michael: right.

Audree: To evolve show and different
mechanisms to show up as that leader.

Show up as the leader that sh that
can shift their, their in, into

evolutionary ways of functioning
to then shift the organization into

evolutionary ways of functioning.

Michael: Alright, this is
what we ran into before.

When someone says, oh, could you just
give us some tools or techniques?

And I'm going like, I don't understand.

Like, like, it doesn't make any sense
because the whole point of this talk is

that tools and techniques are not enough.

The whole point of this talk is that
we actually need a fundamental shift

in addressing the actual core problem.

That there's no way to kick the
command and control habit as a leader.

There's no way to fully treat your people
well without looking inward and clearing

the egoic blocks on your functioning
as a, as a being of consciousness.

Audree: And we figured out how to
do that without going, taking plant

medicine, without going to an ashram
in for a month, India for a month.

Right, because what, first of
all, we're always about what

is the fastest way to do this?

What is the most profound,
effective, quickest, you know,

the shortcuts, the shortcut.

And at the same time, we understand
that this is a moment to moment journey.

It is not a one and done.

You know, we've been to retreats in, in
Costa Rica where everybody's like, oh,

like I feel great after these seven days,
but how do I bring this home with me?

How do I bring this into my workplace?

And because we're, we are not the
teachers, we are just the experience.

We couldn't raise our hand
saying, we have the solution.

Michael: Yeah.

Audree: And then we've seen it over and
over again with our students, how it works

when they apply the, the work, you know?

And sometimes I feel like, oh
my God, this is just a big.

This is just a big commercial for our
work, and I don't want it to be that.

I just, but, and, but, and,

Michael: and we have to give context
because we're talking about something very

different here and we're explaining what
the things are and what, what's going on.

So

Audree: I think what we're really
doing is, the thing is, is that the

ego is not gonna go on this journey
unless it has a specific result,

because the ego is a businessman
and it's not gonna do I got it time.

It's not gonna go on this journey.

It's not gonna take the, the risk that
it, because it understands that there's

a death process that's gonna happen that,
that it's going to transform and it will

only go on this journey unless it has,
you know, what is it gonna get out of it.

It.

And so you cannot talk about
this journey without talking

about why would you do this?

What are the benefits?

Michael: Hmm.

Audree: And that's why
we, we have to do both.

And we have to be very
realistic about our own journey.

Like we've gone to other teachers, we've
done other modalities, we've done the

work already for more over, you know,
we've been on, personally, we've been

on this journey for like 25 years.

Each of us on our own together.

We've been here for 10 years.

It's not like, you know, we just
started doing this a few years ago.

'cause it was the thing to do.

Um,

Michael: oh, just for disclosure.

Audree: Yeah.

Michael: Uh, I've done
zero plant medicine.

Yes.

And everything that
I'm saying is based on.

Feeling the structure of creation and
direct downloads of information so that

Audree: in fact I do not recommend
plant medicine for Michael.

Michael: Yeah.

Audree: At all.

Like, and that I would have
to be there watching you and

I just, I don't wanna do it.

Michael: Yeah.

Alright.

Very good.

Audree: Yeah.

And you don't need it.

Michael: It's not needed.

Audree: No, it's not needed.

I

Michael: think it's actually part
of the, the structure of, of the,

Audree: the

Michael: deviation.

No.

Our paths coming together bringing
in two different very traditions

to get to the same point that

Audree: mm-hmm.

Michael: Shows the whole possibility.

Alright.

Ready for the two mantra?

Yeah.

Anthony, closing

Audree: comments.

Did you start this podcast about
Archana or was that just you and

I together when I walked in there?

Michael: Room?

That was just you and I together.

Audree: Oh.

Michael: I think I mentioned
at the beginning, but I

think we should close now.

Anything more?

Audree: No.

Michael: Hmm.

All right.

Let's take three minutes.

Um, just tune into the frequency and just
allow the energies to integrate everything

you've heard, everything you're feeling.

Thank you for joining us.

Let's be evolutionary.